Geraldine Doogue interview

Hezbollah

Lebanon continues to be unstable and recently the pro Syrian group Hezbollah organised the biggest people power rally yet. This marks the re-emergence into the spotlight of a key political force that’s remained relatively quiet recently. Hezbollah is regarded in the West as simply an anti-Israeli terrorist group, but the reality is much more complicated - it also has seats in Parliament and provides vital social services in parts of the country.

Transcript

Geraldine Doogue: Over the last 20 years, one of the consistent, headline-grabbing organisations in Middle East politics has been Hezbollah, and it did it again this week, when it called out into the Beirut streets hundreds of thousands of people, essentially to remind people there were pro-Syrians among the crowd.

In his landmark state-of-the-union address in 2002, just months after September 11th, Hezbollah was one of the few terrorist groups President Bush mentioned by name, vowing to hunt down all groups who peddled violence.

The name means Party of God. It was formed during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and it’s linked with some of the major terrorist attacks in the last 20 years. For once, both the Europeans and the Americans agree on something; this week the European Parliament passed a resolution branding the group as a terrorist organisation, though it wouldn’t ban it.

However, it may not be quite as straightforward as it sounds. With Lebanon still bubbling away, some opposition members have openly identified Hezbollah as potential partners in a new solution. So who and what is the modern Hezbollah?

Well two guests are joining me now to throw some light on this. Hala Jaber is an English Lebanese journalist with The Sunday Times and the author of ‘Hezbollah’; and Ibrahim Mousawi is the Manager of Political Programs from the TV station Al-Manar in Beirut. And I welcome you both. To Hala Jaber first, how would you characterise this organisation now, Hala?

Hala Jaber: I think now, and before Hezbollah is a Lebanese organisation that came about in effect as a by-product of the Israeli invasion, evolved into a very strong resistance against the Israeli occupation, evolved into a social welfare system of the country, and a very well respected political organisation that currently serves in parliament with 12 members, and with a huge popularity, not just in Lebanon, but in the Arab world in general.

Geraldine Doogue: So has it been changing in the last 10 years, more than is generally reported in the Western world, or not?

Hala Jaber: I think the Western world has always described it as a terrorist organisation, like you said at the beginning, refuse to see it beyond that, and a lot of that is because of the Israeli reflection of Hezbollah. The fact remains that Hezbollah is the only organisation, or the only military force, (and it’s not even a military force, it’s a resistance in effect) that managed to drive Israel, the powerful might of the Israeli army, out of Lebanon after many years and a lot of loss on Hezbollah’s side as well. I don’t think that has changed in the concepts of people here, America has always accused it of being a terrorist organisation because Israel continues to claim that it is a terrorist organisation. As far as many Lebanese are concerned, I mean when Israel withdrew out of Lebanon, or was forced out of Lebanon, Hezbollah’s participation in parliament, continuous participation in parliament means it also has proven to be a political force to be reckoned with. They are one of the few blocs, if you want, in parliament, that continues to work in a very democratic, political manner that perhaps other blocs have not managed or succeeded to do.

Geraldine Doogue: Who drives the breadth that you described, the social welfare organisation; I gather they provide education for their members; who drives that, who are the important forces within it?

Hala Jaber: If you mean how did they start all that. I mean the organisation has never hidden the fact that while it was developing and beginning, they got financial aid from Iran, and from a lot of Moslems who are obliged Islamically, to pay a part of their, if you want, profit per year to their charity.

Geraldine Doogue: So it’s like a tithing system, is it?

Hala Jaber: Yes. But the difference being, many political groups in Lebanon received huge amounts of money over the years during the war and before the war, political parties for that matter, whereas some perhaps use it for personal use, others within their own territories, and their own sects. Hezbollah has done the same, it has contributed or invested a lot of that money to the Shi’ite population, to the areas where there are Shi’ites, over the years, and throughout the history of Lebanon, that sect had been oppressed and had always been seen as at the bottom of the ladder, and there were areas, towns and villages for example where even after 30, 40 years, there was no school or electricity or water, Hezbollah invested money and made sure that such amenities were provided to these areas. Whereas the Lebanese government throughout its history and through the independence of this country and up to very recently had done little but ignore these areas.

Geraldine Doogue: Right. A lot of people in the West were surprised at the numbers Hezbollah could amass this week on the streets of Beirut. How powerful a political force are they now would you assess?

Hala Jaber: I think Tuesday was an indication of not just how powerful the group was, but the little error, or the big error, whichever side of the corner you’re at when you look at it. As far as the West is concerned, they continue, they insist on looking at it purely as you said at the beginning, ‘purely’ as a terrorist organisation, an armed group that supports terrorism in the world. Hezbollah presence on Tuesday is to also say that as far as we are concerned, we do have an armed resistance, but we are also representative of a huge number of people, Lebanese people, in this country, a faction of Lebanese that one cannot ignore when you’re putting the final equation of Lebanon together.

Geraldine Doogue: Can I come to Ibrahim Mousawi now. The United States and the European Union, as I said, call Hezbollah a terrorist organisation, and just so that people remember, they are accused of being behind, for instance, the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 US marines in Beirut back in 1983, and the 1985 hijacking of TWA Flight 847 where if you remember, the plane’s pilot was leaning out of the cockpit with a gun to his head. So I mean, these are very vivid images. How does Hezbollah view itself, in your view, at the moment, Ibrahim?

Ibrahim Mousawi: Well actually all of this accusation that has been passed against Hezbollah was refuted and denied by Hezbollah. Hezbollah says whenever you want to accuse us of anything, you have to bring the proof. The problem with the accusation of Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation has to do with the Israeli lobbying, and with the Israeli efforts in order to marginalise and to destroy the image of this resistance group and this political party as well.

Geraldine Doogue: But does it see itself still in that role? It sounds a little bit like looking at the IRA which has its Sinn Fein wing and its military wing, and as you know, it’s in the news this week, that’s been a very vexed issue of the overlap between the two.

Ibrahim Mousawi: Well actually, I won’t portray Hezbollah, I won’t be able to describe it as such. I mean you’re talking about a genuine political party and you have this resistance, that’s fighting against the occupation. Everybody agrees this is an occupation, even under international law, the United Nations, and they were given the right to do so even in the April agreement, that came as a result of the aggression 1996 I think, with the supervision of the international community. I wouldn’t make a comparison with the IRA or with any other organisation; we’re talking about a unique situation here in Lebanon.

Geraldine Doogue: So how do you think they want to be seen? If they were writing their own mission statement, how would they put it?

Ibrahim Mousawi: The problem here when journalists, when everybody comes here and sees Hezbollah, they get shocked about the after-image that they take, because they have persistently by the Israelis and by others who are pro-Israel in Europe and in the United States of America. You’re talking about a political party which is advocating or preaching and helping to resist in order to defend the people, the sovereignity of the State, has a huge social network as Hala mentioned earlier, and has to do with alleviating the problems of the people. And now you could say they are the saviour and the guardian for the Lebanese State. They’re saying We’re ready to support and to help bridge the gaps between the loyalty and the opposition, we want the dialogue, we want democracy, we want a conversation, we don’t want to resort to any kind of thing, any violence that would bring us back to the civil war or to the instability.

Geraldine Doogue: So they would have a broad manifesto like a typical political party, would they?

Ibrahim Mousawi: They are a political party. If you want to talk about a real political party in Lebanon, or maybe in the Arab world, you would talk about Hezbollah. They are represented in parliament, they have their manifesto, they have their political platform, they have their organised disciplined structure, and they have relations with all the Lebanese groups and even the foreign missions who are in Lebanon as well.

Geraldine Doogue: So their spiritual leader for instance, Hassan Nasrallah, tell us about him. I mean what sort of – he was the man I presume we saw on the television this week, very passionate, slightly I suppose it had a religious overtone in the way he made his speeches.

Ibrahim Mousawi: Hezbollah presents itself as an Islamic movement with this Arab dimension, and it’s an Arab and Islamic movement, and it signifies itself by taking care of all the issues that have to do with the Islamic codes in the Arab world, and especially in Lebanon. They say We are a Lebanese party, we are committed to Lebanese territories, we don’t have any other branch, we don’t want to advocate anything, we help the Palestinians in their choice – whether they are going to go to the negotiations, or do they want to resist the occupation, we are behind them we don’t want to do anything else. When it comes to Mr Nasrallah, you are talking about a very dedicated man who came from the grassroots of those people. He’s been leading them through the resistance, he’s been leading them through the tough times. He sacrificed his son also in the resistance operations against the occupation, and he fell as a martyr, and that’s why he’s looked upon in a very venerated and very respected way, not only in Lebanon but all over the Arab world.

Geraldine Doogue: Just a couple of things then to you both. To you Hala Jaber, would Hezbollah want to become parliamentarians like holding the balance of power, like what comes next in this completely new situation in which everyone seems to find itself?

Hala Jaber: I think when the opposition or certainly when senior members of the opposition currently are saying that the only people that actually will hold talks with Lebanon regarding the future of Lebanon, post Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon, and they named it by name. It is Hezbollah, and the secretary of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah - that in a sense is an indication as to how the party is seen, not just by the Shi’ites who also are called the followers of Hezbollah, but by the large majority in the country. When people in the opposition name him as the only legitimate, even though he’s been cited as a pro-Syrian, but the only legitimate group that they will consider seriously to negotiate, to make dialogue –

Geraldine Doogue: So he can make deals as well, can he? He’s a deal-maker as well?

Hala Jaber: Yes, because they are all referring to them at the moment as the artillery if you want. There’s a word that Arabic people are using more and more in newspapers and the media and analysts, whereby they’re saying that Hezbollah is becoming the artillery if you want of the unity of healing in Lebanon, and this is what they’re looking at, this is what they’re seeing in Nasrallah himself. That is indicative of how the people perceive him and how even politicians in this country perceive him.

Geraldine Doogue:And very quickly to you, Ibrahim: is Hezbollah is still justified in keeping this military wing, and remaining so antagonistic to Israel while trying to be a deal-maker?

Ibrahim Mousawi: Well actually yes. There is no conscious and there is no contradiction between the two. This is not a paradox this is not a controversial issue. You’re talking about parts of Lebanon that are still under occupation. Actually the respectability of Hezbollah as a political party came because of its serious, straightforward, honest resistance that led to the liberation of Lebanon, so people still continue to support that Hezbollah should not be disarmed, and if it’s going to be disarmed it should be a deal between the Lebanese government and this Lebanese group that abides by Lebanese rules and regulations.

Geraldine Doogue: OK, look, we must leave it there. Thank you both very much indeed, because I think this is a subject that people in the Western world feel quite challenged by.

Hala Jaber, thank you to you. Hala is a journalist with The Sunday Times and the author of ‘Hezbollah’; and Ibrahim Mousawi works for Al-Manar, it’s a TV station, he’s the Manager of Political Programs there, and they’re both based in Beirut.

Guests on this program:

Hala Jaber
Lebanese journalist with The Sunday Times and author of “Hezbollah” published by Colombia University Press

Ibrahim Mousawi
Manager of Political Programs of Al-Manar a Lebanese TV station

Story Producer: Jason di Rosso