Transcript of BBC4 Interview

Presenter:

All but a tiny fringe of Muslim organisations here have condemned the London suicide bombings, but are those organisations condemning in London what they’re failing to condemn abroad? That’s a question the Panorama reporter John Ware’s asking. He’s currently examining the role of the main Muslim organisation in Britain today, the Muslim Council of Britain. He joins us here in the studio, as does Inayat Buglawala, a spokesperson for the Muslim Council of Britain. John first, the Muslim Council of Britain’s Secretary-General is Sir Iqbal Sacranie. He’s condemned the London suicide bombings in forthright terms, hasn’t he?

John Ware:

Yes he has. He says that Islam can never justify evil actions and bombers, and he’s urged everyone to look to our shared values and common humanity, as he puts it.

Presenter:

Two years ago there were two British suicide bombers, like the London bombers, both of Pakistani origin. They went to Tel Avid to blow up Mike’s Bar, three people were killed. What did Sir Iqbal say then?

John Ware:

Well on this occasion he said that the loss of civilian life, and he mentioned both Palestinian and Israelis, couldn’t be condoned. Muslim group Hamas claim the bombing, and their founder Sheikh Yassim (?) was later assassinated by Israelis. Now what happened then was that a year or so later several Muslim organisations here in London held a memorial service for Sheikh Yassim (?) at the Central Mosque in Regent’s Park and Sir Iqbal chose to attend this service, and he also described Sheikh Yassim (?) as a renowned Islamic scholar.

Presenter:

But doesn’t Hamas have a political wing?

John Ware:

It does, though the Israeli government would say that Hamas’ political and military agenda were set by Sheikh Yassim (?). Certainly he was the chief ideologist of an organisation that’s charter seeks the destruction of Israel. And Hamas has conducted a fair number of the 60 or so suicide bombing attacks since the second Intefada, which have killed in total over 500 people, again women and civilians just as in London.

Presenter:

There’s one senior theologian whose fatwahs have been used to provide justification for suicide bombings directed at Israeli civilians, Dr Yusuf Karadawi (?) the man who the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, welcomed to City Hall last year and described as ‘moderate’.

John Ware:

Well, although Dr. Karadawi has condemned the London suicide bombings unequivocally, when it comes to Israel he says, I’m quoting here an interview he gave, quotes, we must all realise that the Israeli society is a military society, men or women. We cannot describe the society as civilian, they are not civilians or innocent. He’s also supported the use of child suicide bombers. During a TV debate in the Gulf, according to BBC Monitoring he’s said, quotes, the Israelis might have nuclear bombs but we have the children bomb, and these human bombs must continue until liberation.

Presenter:

And what have the Muslim Council of Britain had to say about Dr. Karadawi?

John Ware:

Like the Hamas leader Sheikh Yassim (?), the Muslim Council of Britain has also described Dr. Karadawi in fairly flattering terms. They said he’s, quotes, a distinguished Muslim scholar, a voice of reason and understanding.

Presenter:

And what has his position been on Iraq?

John Ware:

Dr. Karadawi’s position on Iraq has supported the resistance, which he has described as ‘valiant’, I’m quoting here from the Lebanese national news agency website, where he is reported to have said, quotes, we call for material, military and human support. The Muslims want the scholars to show the Arab and Muslim person’s duty is towards this cause. So this, I guess, would imply support for attacks on British soldiers as well as American obviously.

Presenter:

Now one of the Muslim Council’s main affiliates is the Muslim Association of Britain, which also claims to speak for Muslims here. What have they had to say about suicide bombing in Israel and Iraq?

John Ware:

Well a senior member of MAB, Muslim Association of Britain, Dr. Azam Tamimi (?) has said he does support suicide bombings in Israel. I should stress that Dr. Tamimi has condemned unequivocally the London bombings but he says that if he got the chance in Israel he would, quotes, I would sacrifice myself, it’s the straight way to pleasing my God.

Presenter:

And what has the government said about suicide bombings in Israel?

John Ware:

The government’s position is clear-cut. Targeting civilians wherever they are is terrorism, and the Prime Minister has said so in clear terms. We want nothing to do with people who support suicide bombings in Palestine or anywhere else, he’s said.

Presenter:

John Ware, thank you. Well, Inayat Bunglawala, who’s listening to that, do you have any first thoughts on these rather serious charges that John Ware’s making, alleging that the Muslim Council of Britain never expressly condemns all suicide bombings?

Inayat Bunglawala:

Let me make clear then, once and for all, we condemn the killing of all innocent people wherever they are, human lives everywhere are of equal value, whether they are British, American, Iraqi, or Palestinian. Jewish lives are not worth more than Palestinian lives, all are worth equal, and it’s been quite nauseating over the past week to see how Israel and its highly-placed supporters in the media have been trying to make political capital out of last week’s atrocities against Londoners. It is shameful on them and shameful upon those who are trying to help Israel improving its PR image after the brutalities it commits against the Palestinian people.

Presenter:

Well this is your chance now to answer some of those charges about whether you fail to condemn in the Middle East what you have now condemned in London?

Inayat Bunglawala:

Well we always condemned the taking of innocent life anywhere. Can I just make it clear here, it’s quite misleading to compare the situation here in the UK with that in Israel. The 1.6 million Muslims in the UK here live in peace, they are free to practice their faith, they are free to go about their daily lives without let or hindrance. The Palestinians, by contrast, live under a very brutal occupation, a very repressive military occupation, seeing their land every day being gobbled up by illegal Jewish settlements.

Presenter:

But that still can’t be justification for suicide bombings…

Inayat Bunglawala:

No, no it cannot, but many of our own columnists, even members of parliament, have said that if they were Palestinians, if they were living under those conditions, if they were seeing their children humiliated in the way that Israelis humiliate their children, if they saw their children being blown to pieces, they would consider doing what the Palestinians do. That is, our own Parliamentarians have said that. So if they can say that, of course Muslims will feel a greater affinity for the Palestinians.

Presenter:

But you’re now saying that you must not, you do not, should not do that, that the Koran does not say that that’s an acceptable practice…

Inayat Bunglawala:

Absolutely, the Koran says you cannot take innocent life. But again, to explain is not to justify. When you try and explain why the Palestinians are being driven to what they’re doing, it’s not to justify it, it’s to try to explain why they’re doing what they’re doing. Even our own Parliamentarians have tried to do the same.

Presenter:

OK, two other very brief points. Sheikh Yassim (?), the support that Sir Iqbal Sacranie has mentioned for him, as John Ware was saying, was that misguided?

Inayat Bunglawala:

No it was not, Sheikh Yassim (?) is an Islamic scholar, was an Islamic scholar, was renowned throughout the Muslim world as an Islamic scholar, and the Israelis assassinated him, let’s remember that, the Israelis broke international law, he was a quadriplegic man, a disabled man, he was coming out of the morning prayers, and the Israelis sent F16 fighter planes and they blew him up.

Presenter:

He was the chief ideas man behind an organisation whose charter seeks the destruction of Israel?

Inayat Bunglawala:

Well that’s right. If Israel claims to be a democracy, which it does at every opportunity, then it should bring people to justice by courts of law, not blow them up by missiles.

Presenter:

OK, and the other person mentioned, a senior member of the Muslim Association of Britain, Dr. Azam Tamimi (?) said he supports suicide bombings in Israel. Now that group is one of your main affiliates.

Inayat Bunglawala:

The Muslim Council of Britain has over 400 affiliates..

Presenter:

So what do you say to him?

Inayat Bunglawala

…from a whole range of Muslim organisations. If he makes that comment, he should answer for that. We say that…

Presenter:

Can’t you cut him off, can’t you say…

Inayat Bunglawala:

Dr Azam himself is a Palestinian, and I can understand why he feels such pain for the Palestinians, and I can understand why others are driven to what they are doing. Dr Azam Tamimi again is respected, if our own Parliamentarians can say they can understand why Palestinians are doing this, of course other Palestinians themselves will express their feelings…

Presenter:

But if your message now is one of solidarity here in Britain, and that you are condemning suicide bombings across the world, then wouldn’t a strong message be to cut off affiliation with people like that, to say you no longer can be regarded as one of us?

Inayat Bunglawala:

No, then we would have to throw out our own members of parliament, I think what Dr. Azam is doing is trying to explain…

Presenter:

They’ve all been, you’re talking about the members of parliament?

Inayat Bunglawala:

Yes, they said they could understand, we’ve had Jenny Tonge, s senior member of the Liberal Democrats, Cherie Blair the Prime Minister’s wife, explaining why she could understand why the Palestinians are doing what they do. So this is not to justify..

Presenter:

It’s not condoning?

Inayat Bunglawala:

It is not condoning, no, it’s not condoning, it is trying to explain why they do what they do.

Presenter:

I’m afraid we’ve got to stop it there, Inayat Bunglawala and Jim Ware, thank you very much.

Ends